[FusionAdmin] Admin list usage (was: The New Layout -- Mockup)

[Will Farrington]

On Wed, 2007-07-25 at 23:23 +0200, Kristian Lyngstøl wrote:
> On 7/25/07, Will Farrington <wcfarrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-07-25 at 19:55 +0200, Kristian Lyngstøl wrote:
> > > On 7/24/07, Will Farrington <wcfarrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 00:47 +0200, Kristian Lyngstøl wrote:
> > > > > On 7/24/07, Will Farrington <wcfarrington at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Simply put, within hours we'd have had a Digg posting on the front page
> > > > > > and 328793754 rabid forum-goers all trying desperately to have their own
> > > > > > individual little request put into the theme... and as a result things
> > > > > > would take longer and the final product would be of lesser quality.
> > > > >
> > > > > People keep throwing this argument right and left. That we get
> > > > > attention shouldn't be a reason to choose a closed development cycle.
> > > > > And I also think you overestimate the importance of this. If digg
> > > > > people really want to read all about it, then why shouldn't they be
> > > > > allowed to?
> > > >
> > > > Because it's begging people to judge an unfinished product as if it were
> > > > a finished one. After all, it's unfair to both the person designing the
> > > > layout as well as the project which is represented by the layout when
> > > > people begin to assume and critique it as if it's an entirely final
> > > > product - which it isn't.
> > >
> > > Since I see we aren't going to agree any time soon, I'll cut it short.
> > > Much of this discussion is based on whether or not discussions such as
> > > the one concerning the theme of the website would generate too much
> > > noise to be practical, if posted on a public list. It is my opinion
> > > that it wouldn't, but I can also understand your concern.
> > >
> > > So instead of arguing over whether using the web list will work or
> > > not, can I ask you to TRY it? If it turns out to be the problem that
> > > you predict, we'll have to think of something. I can think of a few
> > > things right away, but at least it shouldn't be on the admin list, so
> > > we'd have to create another closed list at the very least(...).
> > >
> > > Since using the web list isn't an irreversible action, I think it's
> > > worth it at the very least as a social experiment. Do you think you
> > > could do this, if for no other reason than to prove me wrong? ;)
> > >
> >
> > The fatal flaw in such a plan is that the damage will have already been
> > done by the time a consensus is reached.
> 
> It's an experiment, we can't keep assuming things like this. We have
> to know. It's a one-time issue, if we aren't able to handle a single
> case of this, then we're in trouble anyway. Even if worse comes to
> worse, it still a matter of just a few extra mails and attention.
> We've handled worse in the past.

"Worst comes to worst we can put up with the extra trouble" is not a
reason, nor an excuse, to do things any other way than the proper, most
efficient, and most productive way.

> 
> > I'd say that the past actions of countless other entities (open source
> > as well) that have chosen to have their website developed in a closed
> > environment is enough merit in its own right (Ubuntu, GNOME, and many
> > more than I could probably round up and tally).
> 
> I didn't want to bring this up, but I don't really care what other
> organizations have done. What I do care about is their reasoning, so
> far you haven't presented any of their reasoning. And besides, it
> makes little sense to compare our relatively tiny project to a huge
> project like Ubuntu and gnome. If ubuntu gets 100 mails about a web
> issue, we'd get 1. Coping with 100 irrelevant mails for every issue is
> obviously a lot more difficult than coping with 1 irrelevant mail per
> issue.

It makes all the sense in the world! While the scope of this project
isn't as large as Ubuntu, the userbase _is_ and will continue to be
comparable! Many distributions are already shipping Compiz by default -
and soon many more will be shipping Compiz Fusion by default. The amount
of popularity this project has is phenomenal. Forum registrations won't
reflect it - nor will hits to the site. Many, many people who use Compiz
Fusion will never set foot on our site - sure. But, far more will.

Keeping in mind the interest in the project, what do you think is going
to happen when all of a sudden a half-finished design is on the front
page of Digg? Nothing productive. We'll have tens of thousands of people
emailing or posting on forums about their own little pet concern about
the design. What happens then? We delay for months on end as we try to
address every single person? Or do we ignore them and then catch
negative press because we didn't comply with every little comment made
by every random user in the universe?

Beyond that, to disregard the paths taken and the choices made of other
large projects is foolish at best. It is critical that we keep in mind
that those same organizations do this for reasons. I may not be able to
speak on their behalf, but logic goes to show that if so many
organizations do it, then it must be for good reasons.

Still, I doubt a little deductive reasoning will satisfy you. So, here
are my reasons:

* Being that the design is not finished, it is likely to receive massive
amounts of negative feedback about issues that are already planned to be
addressed. While such issues will certainly be addressed, the damage has
already been done in the form of bad publicity for  the project.

* In a similar vein, those on the forums, IRC, and mailing lists - most
especially those connected with designing the site will be subject to
undue stress and wasted time because of numerous and often repetitive
complaints lodged by such individuals.

* Clamor for the opening of the new site, most likely prematurely, will
surge to a point that many people become discontent with the "lack of
progress" (as opposed to being content with the desire to release a
clean, finished, and working product). More bad press for the project.

* Inevitably, as addressed above, we would be forced to either ignore
the user comments and face the anger of the masses, or attempt to
implement them, thereby further delaying a 'release date' and resulting
in a more crowded, less coherent, and overall weaker design.

> 
> I think you are exaggerating the consequence of doing web discussions
> on the dedicated web development list. This is the ADMIN list, this is
> not admin related, please use the web list or petition for creation of
> another closed web development list, because frankly, I don't want to
> see web development stuff on the admin list. It's obviously related to
> web development, not administrating the project.

Because developing a site that suits the needs of Compiz core, Compiz
Fusion, and their respective Developers and Documentors has of course
absolutely nothing to do with administering the project.

>  The admin list is a
> suitable place to discuss whether or not the web list should be open
> or not, what method to be used for selecting a name, or what to do if
> a server turns out to be unstable. It is not a suitable place to
> discuss web development. One of the most important reasons I asked for
> a separate list for web was to keep the web issues away from the other
> lists, ignoring an existing list because you don't agree with how it
> is managed is not really a type of behavior I consider acceptable.

I'm not seeking a closed web list. There's no reason to do so. Many
things are worthy of discussion and are appropriate for discussing on
the web list.

This, for reasons outlined above is not one of them.

> Then you should've voiced your opinion when the list was created, not
> just ignored it. If you did and I didn't catch it, then I apologize,
> it was never my intention to ignore anyone's concern.

I did not, because there are valid and reasonable conversations to be
held there that should be publicly available and easy to participate in.

> If your comments slipped by me or if you misunderstood the intention
> of the different lists, then feel free to discuss how we should use
> the lists, but in the meanwhile, use the already established lists.

Please don't instruct me on how to do things, nor continue to talk down
to me.

I get that you love the code and couldn't give much a rat's ass about
anything else. Kudos to you. I'm sorry that anything other than code or
the most bureaucratic way to vote for a logo is just not "worthy" of
your time or attention. Whether or not you believe it, the matter of a
web front for this web project _is_ important, and there will be some
things that the Admin list _will_ need to specifically address regarding
it - just as the Admin list has had to deal with things like how to
select a logo, or which installations of Compiz Fusion are supported, or
which server X, Y, and Z should be hosted in. This list isn't always
going to be about things that you particularly enjoy discussing. So, to
be candid, you'd better come to terms with it - else you're going to be
very unhappy being a member of this list.