[FusionAdmin] I don't care for a title ... nobody reads this anyway ...

[Will Farrington]

On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 13:06 +0200, RYX wrote:
> Am Montag, den 23.07.2007, 22:07 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> > On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 02:33 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > Am Montag, den 23.07.2007, 18:25 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> > > > On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 00:17 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > > > Even though I shouldn't comment here anymore, I'd like to propose
> > > > > something. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Why don't you just use/keep the current look of the compiz.org website,
> > > > > add the new logo/header and then port the forum-theme to phpBB3? It
> > > > > should be fairly simple to do, cause less much work than creating a new
> > > > > theme and, to be honest, look far better than the current mockup will. I
> > > > > really doubt it would be good to make such a huge step back in
> > > > > design-quality.
> > > > 
> > > > While I understand that you are partial to your own design, and by doing
> > > > this new theme we mean no insult to your own previous work, I think most
> > > > everyone here will prefer a new theme - after all, you yourself were
> > > > working on one up until you left.
> > > It is not that I like my own design so much (if I would, I wouldn't have
> > > started a new one), but I think you could avoid the work of creating an
> > > entirely new theme that goes into pretty much the same direction as the
> > > one we have already (e.g. clean, elegant and simple). How do you plan to
> > > integrate it with the overall site? What about the wiki? What about the
> > > forum?
> > 
> > The forum will share a design of the same concept using more 'neutral'
> > colors (not so much separate from Compiz and Compiz Fusion's colors but
> > more in the literal aspect of neutral in color theory), I believe.
> > 
> > As for the rest, details for those particular aspects should, and will
> > most, certainly be discussed on the Web ML.
> I think the admin list should be used for those things, but that's another 
> point where we all have differing opinions.

I don't have any problems with that either. Apparently, however, several
(or perhaps more?) people believe that having any sort of sensible
management staff in which (and this may come as a shock!) some decisions
are actually _made_ is a waste of time. I think that is a pity.

> > > > As for the theme itself - it's not finalized, but I have to say
> > > > "Different strokes for different folks". What you find a "step
> > > > backwards", I find simple and elegant.
> > > I think it is not more simple or more elegant than the current
> > > compiz.org theme and it lacks originality. It uses a quite common style
> > > for the menu effects. I have seen that menu on many other sites.
> > 
> > 'Common' does not mean bad. Good ideas are recycled for a reason -
> > they're worthwhile.
> Maybe I should wait a bit longer before judging about your design. It
> isn't really fair to criticize a first mockup, I know. I tend to be a
> perfectionist concerning web-development ... (yes, come on people - tell
> me that ryxperience.com looks crappy ... I actually know that ;) ... it
> was a "one-evening"-site)

To be frank, I'm more worried about 9369765435653 people from Digg
bitching about it before it's done than the 20 or so people on this list
offering constructive criticism (which is geared towards actually
getting it done).

> > > I'd propose that we ask David about his opinion before compiz.org gets
> > > replaced with such a theme (that's still the plan, isn't it? making a
> > > combined website). If the website for his project gets replaced by
> > > another one, he should have a say in that.
> > 
> > If he is willing to give input, I most certainly want it.
> I think you should just keep him informed about the progress, I don't
> know if he reads this list ...

I think he is subscribed - whether or not he reads, I don't know. In
either case, so long as things are handled properly, I really doubt he
gives the slightest care as to whether the site is hot pink or not. As
long as its informative and serves the project, I don't really foresee
him having much to say about it.

> > > > > You can use the current compiz-theme as a base if you like, I have no
> > > > > problem with that as long as the compiz/fusion design keeps/gets its
> > > > > deserved quality.
> > > > > 
> > > > > best regards
> > > > > 
> > > > > Rico
> > > > 
> > > > I see no harm in considering this, but I don't think it'd be widely
> > > > supported.
> > > It's only an offer. I am quite aware that several people successfully
> > > made me the black sheep (most likely with support on irc) and my opinion
> > > is unimportant anyway ;) ... To me it all seems like a big joke. Kid's
> > > playing ...
> > 
> > I understand that. Like I said, I'm not opposed to weighing such
> > options, but I do feel many wouldn't even allow such options to be
> > brought forth for legitimate discussion - which is a pity, not because I
> > particularly support re-using your old theme, but rather because such
> > tactics are hardly the best way to support the concept of working as a
> > team.
> The definition of teamwork somehow differs from person to person. If I
> don't know what 75% of my team-members are there for, I can hardly start
> seeing us as a productive team at all ... Is there any reason for being
> tenth of people here? I never saw more than 7 or 8 people contributing
> anything of worth. All others are either just nitpicking or making noise
> when they see a chance. Or just "organizing" things to their likings.

I can't help but agree.

While the "nitpicking" certainly does have its place, I also must begin
to wonder why we have people subscribed to this list who want to ignore
aspects like the construction of this design because the topic of
discussion is not one that they, personally, are interested in. I
believe that being a part of this particular list entails being
responsible for reading every post there-in, regardless of the poster or
the topic at hand.

Like you said - it can't really be teamwork when less than half of the
people who are subscribed to this list are actually contributing to
discussion in any one given topic.

> > 
> > > Our problem from the very first minute was that everyone always says: 
> > > "Oh yes - that's great", likely only to not hurt someone's feelings by 
> > > telling him the ugly truth ...
> > > 
> > > If not everyone would attack me for being honest, we would already 
> > > have a finished theme ...
> > 
> > Honesty, however brutal, is also something I greatly cherish in my own
> > life. I also, however, understand that there are times in which words
> > can be more carefully chosen such that one can be both respectful and
> > honest at the same time. Not to point fingers at any one in particular,
> > but I'm simply saying that however important honesty may be, speaking
> > respectfully to one another should always, always come first.
> I think you got me one this one ;) ... I am not that much able to make
> use of my polite vocabulary if I am not talking in my first language (I
> think this is a big reason that most people simple ignore _what_ I say
> and focus on _how_ I say it). I am quite sure that several things I say
> are not very much offensive if translated to german (ok, maybe some
> were :)).

It's quite understandable. I, myself, speak French as a secondary
language and often find that things I might say in English are
considered rude in French.

> However - I have put a lot of love into compiz and the community, and I
> still do. I don't really _want_ to let them (and you guys here) down, I
> more feel like I have to ... I just can't enforce my help on anyone - if
> someone doesn't want to listen then, I guess, I have to accept it.

It is most definitely one of the sadder facts of life.

> But this leads to the core problem I always tried to mention. We have no
> bigger organization and/or plans. Everyone cares for his little piece
> and everyone else hopes that the other knows what he has to do. We
> should maybe first talk about things and then do them afterwards. I know
> many people try to describe this as "telling people what to do" - I'd
> call it "tutoring", "guiding" or just "organizing" ... (I don't speak of
> the devs or the few people on this list, btw - I mean all users and
> contributors from the community)

This, too, is a gripe of mine. This Admin List shouldn't be comprised of
people who only care about one particular part of the project. (Please
note that "caring" and "contributing" are not the same. Whilst I
contribute to the web aspect, I do at least care about the code aspect
by staying current with the development and such). By definition, topics
addressed on this list are _important_, and as such, everyone here
_should_ care about it.

> We don't act as a management, we act like a bunch of people who all do
> as they please. Some do it together, some try it own their own ... Some
> even refuse to use this (or the previous) list at all, with the stupid
> excuse that all this is so unproductive ...

Agreed.

> Jeff, maybe you remember how it worked back in compiz (though I fear you
> forgot about that) - we discussed things and then realized them. We
> didn't need to argue with people. We didn't need to talk about the most
> basic parts of project-management. We didn't need to _beg_ people to
> finally start thinking on a professional level ... That's what I miss
> here.

Arturo and I had a discussion in much the same vein a few weeks back.
While this "project" or whatever we're calling it these days is
certainly young, I can't help but notice that things on the Compiz Admin
list were constructive, effective, and efficient. Whether it was because
of the people subscribed or the general understanding among us, I can't
say. What I can say is there is a definite marked difference between the
way things were accomplished on that list than the way things are on
this one.

> Anyway, I don't think any of you starts listening to me now ... most
> likely nobody (except Will?) will read this mail at all ... (maybe I
> should attach a photo of me naked, only for the curisoity if anyone read
> this :D ...).

If you did such a thing I may have to gouge my eyes out. =P