[FusionAdmin] I don't care for a title ... nobody reads this anyway ...

[RYX]

Am Montag, den 23.07.2007, 22:07 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 02:33 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > Am Montag, den 23.07.2007, 18:25 -0400 schrieb Will Farrington:
> > > On Tue, 2007-07-24 at 00:17 +0200, RYX wrote:
> > > > Even though I shouldn't comment here anymore, I'd like to propose
> > > > something. 
> > > > 
> > > > Why don't you just use/keep the current look of the compiz.org website,
> > > > add the new logo/header and then port the forum-theme to phpBB3? It
> > > > should be fairly simple to do, cause less much work than creating a new
> > > > theme and, to be honest, look far better than the current mockup will. I
> > > > really doubt it would be good to make such a huge step back in
> > > > design-quality.
> > > 
> > > While I understand that you are partial to your own design, and by doing
> > > this new theme we mean no insult to your own previous work, I think most
> > > everyone here will prefer a new theme - after all, you yourself were
> > > working on one up until you left.
> > It is not that I like my own design so much (if I would, I wouldn't have
> > started a new one), but I think you could avoid the work of creating an
> > entirely new theme that goes into pretty much the same direction as the
> > one we have already (e.g. clean, elegant and simple). How do you plan to
> > integrate it with the overall site? What about the wiki? What about the
> > forum?
> 
> The forum will share a design of the same concept using more 'neutral'
> colors (not so much separate from Compiz and Compiz Fusion's colors but
> more in the literal aspect of neutral in color theory), I believe.
> 
> As for the rest, details for those particular aspects should, and will
> most, certainly be discussed on the Web ML.
I think the admin list should be used for those things, but that's another 
point where we all have differing opinions.

> > > As for the theme itself - it's not finalized, but I have to say
> > > "Different strokes for different folks". What you find a "step
> > > backwards", I find simple and elegant.
> > I think it is not more simple or more elegant than the current
> > compiz.org theme and it lacks originality. It uses a quite common style
> > for the menu effects. I have seen that menu on many other sites.
> 
> 'Common' does not mean bad. Good ideas are recycled for a reason -
> they're worthwhile.
Maybe I should wait a bit longer before judging about your design. It
isn't really fair to criticize a first mockup, I know. I tend to be a
perfectionist concerning web-development ... (yes, come on people - tell
me that ryxperience.com looks crappy ... I actually know that ;) ... it
was a "one-evening"-site)

> > I'd propose that we ask David about his opinion before compiz.org gets
> > replaced with such a theme (that's still the plan, isn't it? making a
> > combined website). If the website for his project gets replaced by
> > another one, he should have a say in that.
> 
> If he is willing to give input, I most certainly want it.
I think you should just keep him informed about the progress, I don't
know if he reads this list ...

> > > > You can use the current compiz-theme as a base if you like, I have no
> > > > problem with that as long as the compiz/fusion design keeps/gets its
> > > > deserved quality.
> > > > 
> > > > best regards
> > > > 
> > > > Rico
> > > 
> > > I see no harm in considering this, but I don't think it'd be widely
> > > supported.
> > It's only an offer. I am quite aware that several people successfully
> > made me the black sheep (most likely with support on irc) and my opinion
> > is unimportant anyway ;) ... To me it all seems like a big joke. Kid's
> > playing ...
> 
> I understand that. Like I said, I'm not opposed to weighing such
> options, but I do feel many wouldn't even allow such options to be
> brought forth for legitimate discussion - which is a pity, not because I
> particularly support re-using your old theme, but rather because such
> tactics are hardly the best way to support the concept of working as a
> team.
The definition of teamwork somehow differs from person to person. If I
don't know what 75% of my team-members are there for, I can hardly start
seeing us as a productive team at all ... Is there any reason for being
tenth of people here? I never saw more than 7 or 8 people contributing
anything of worth. All others are either just nitpicking or making noise
when they see a chance. Or just "organizing" things to their likings.

> 
> > Our problem from the very first minute was that everyone always says: 
> > "Oh yes - that's great", likely only to not hurt someone's feelings by 
> > telling him the ugly truth ...
> > 
> > If not everyone would attack me for being honest, we would already 
> > have a finished theme ...
> 
> Honesty, however brutal, is also something I greatly cherish in my own
> life. I also, however, understand that there are times in which words
> can be more carefully chosen such that one can be both respectful and
> honest at the same time. Not to point fingers at any one in particular,
> but I'm simply saying that however important honesty may be, speaking
> respectfully to one another should always, always come first.
I think you got me one this one ;) ... I am not that much able to make
use of my polite vocabulary if I am not talking in my first language (I
think this is a big reason that most people simple ignore _what_ I say
and focus on _how_ I say it). I am quite sure that several things I say
are not very much offensive if translated to german (ok, maybe some
were :)).

However - I have put a lot of love into compiz and the community, and I
still do. I don't really _want_ to let them (and you guys here) down, I
more feel like I have to ... I just can't enforce my help on anyone - if
someone doesn't want to listen then, I guess, I have to accept it.

But this leads to the core problem I always tried to mention. We have no
bigger organization and/or plans. Everyone cares for his little piece
and everyone else hopes that the other knows what he has to do. We
should maybe first talk about things and then do them afterwards. I know
many people try to describe this as "telling people what to do" - I'd
call it "tutoring", "guiding" or just "organizing" ... (I don't speak of
the devs or the few people on this list, btw - I mean all users and
contributors from the community)

The spirit and motivation I/we had a while ago are purely gone. Why? It
all started with setting up oc.o - I still see this as a "military act".
It was the biggest mistake of all. It was a clear demonstration of: "We
are the majority, we are always right in what we do!" ... And this
pretty much describes the attitude of a certain amount of former beryl
(now oc.o) devs/users ... (those people all need the mistakes tattoed
right on their faces before they start noticing them).

We don't act as a management, we act like a bunch of people who all do
as they please. Some do it together, some try it own their own ... Some
even refuse to use this (or the previous) list at all, with the stupid
excuse that all this is so unproductive ... (I'd rather think their
attitude of rewriting things until they somewhen work is even more
unproductive).

Jeff, maybe you remember how it worked back in compiz (though I fear you
forgot about that) - we discussed things and then realized them. We
didn't need to argue with people. We didn't need to talk about the most
basic parts of project-management. We didn't need to _beg_ people to
finally start thinking on a professional level ... That's what I miss
here.

Anyway, I don't think any of you starts listening to me now ... most
likely nobody (except Will?) will read this mail at all ... (maybe I
should attach a photo of me naked, only for the curisoity if anyone read
this :D ...).

(I think I have to congratulate Jeff for his awesome plan to silence me
and Mike with his "politics" ... well done! Playing stupid seems to work
out well ... In the end people may really believe you just innocently
wanted the best for everyone, even though you simply sacrificed your
fellow team-members in favor of your personal plans and a bunch of
easily controllable "young-guns" ... I'd really like to know how many
private mails you exchanged with people from "all sides" ...)

Rico

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